I have been wondering if you ever plan on separating the cyclic tuning?

Hi,

I am sorry, but could you explain your question in a greater detail, please?

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Spirit System developer

I mean separate P.I.D. setup for roll and pitch.
I still see an issue on my pitch(elevator) that needs a tweaking to the PID settings.

It is separated from the beginning - if mechanics is all OK, then the only thing you would need to possibly eliminate is elevator bounce back - this can be done by Elevator Filter.
All other issues are unfortunately caused by mechanical problems, that can be fortunately eliminated.
For Spirit you do not have to tune any PIDs since it is tuned automatically in range of possibilities, except Elevator Filter.

In the future release we would like to remove also Elevator Filter so that it is automatically configured for the best performance.

Better would be to describe what problem you are observing? There is always a solution without need to anyhow tune PID.

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Spirit System developer

Elevator filter will not stop the issue I have seen. I still see the same issue I had a long time ago when I stopped using the Spirit but now it is a very minor issue. The only way I see to solve the issue is a change in the PID. I`m not having any mechanical issues. I use three different FBL systems. The only helis I have that I see the problem on all have a Spirit on them. On the other two systems you can make changes to settings for both roll and pitch.

When I do a half loop and come out inverted at the top the helis will slightly pitch up. ( which is down in a way because the heli is inverted )
The same happens coming out at the bottom up right. The heli will pitch down.
In past when I stopped using the Spirit it was terrible with this issue. After an update awhile back the issue did become better. Not enough of an issue to stop using the Spirit system.

Thank you for the details.

Well, actually this behavior can't be really solved by any PID parameter. What you can observe is caused very likely by adaptive geometry correction. This is feature that is trying actually to resolve pitch-up phenomenon when flying fast and changing abrupt collective pitch changes so that the model stays level.
And it is applied to both aileron and elevator, but is calculated separately in respect of what must be compensated.

When flying fast some helicopters require this correction in order to fly straight. But in some cases it could work in the wrong way.
These are:
a) swashplate center is off either because it was not leveled with cyclic leveler and/or when servo arms are at their mechanic center, there is non-zero angle between main blades. This issue (and other) can be eliminated by this guide: http://manual.spirit-system.com/index.p ... tive_Pitch
b) CoG is off, so that helicopter is pushed to some side. Very often it is elevator axis. The more CoG is off, the more the compensation can be apparent. But when flying fast, this imprecision is causing troubles.
c) Servo Travel Correction is used incorrectly
d) Geometry 6° is not configured well (very likely too high)

To check that it is really the case, you can just decrease your Geometry 6° value by maybe 20 - 30 points. Some difference should be visible, but it will have impact also on the flight characteristics. Possible it could eliminate the problem you can see.

The reason why you might not observe the issue with other units is, because there are only few FBL controllers that support adaptive geometry correction. With this there are basically zero pilots with pitch up issues in FFF, while with other controllers you have to either set such compensation statically (if supported) or you can just tune PID to make an issue invisible which is degrading overall performance. When you have to mask an issue, it mean some compromise must be made. But this is not way we want to go.

It is just interesting that a difference is visible between updates. Do you remember which version introduced any improvement? There was no change in any area like this for very long time. Big difference can be visible just be doing another configuration that has just different values. So for example closer it is to good values, the better results you can achieve.

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Spirit System developer

I can not remember which update I saw a change in the issue. It has been awhile back. I don`t have to be moving at a FFF for it to happen because it will happen at the top of a half loop when I level out to fly out inverted. It will have a quick,sharp pitch up but the heli will fly out at close to level flight instead of sharply flying up at an angle.

What I see now is that the heli will level out as I let off pitch(elevator) then do a short sharp pitch down but continue fairly level flight. Instead of sharply flying up or down in an angle path .

In the past in upright flight it would pitch down and if inverted it would pitch up and fly out at about 45* angle.

In a straight flat level FFF there is no pitchiness to heli up or down.

I have 6 Spirits on two different brand(SAB & KDS) helis and flying w/ 380 & 420 blades. It is hard to believe I have six terribly setup helis. When I have 9 other helis w/ 380 & 420 blades(SAB, MSH, Guai & KDS) that fly perfect with the other two FBL systems. I use the same TX on all the helis.

If you can see abrupt pitch up or pitch down then it is in 99% cases only due to small Cyclic Ring limit.
The highest collective pitch range, the higher Cyclic Ring has to be set.

Well, you can think in other way.
There are thousands and thousands pilots flying with Spirit around the world for quite long time. Why they can fly half loops without any problem? Unfortunately I can't recall anybody else with similar problem. And they are flying with very same units.
For this reason I am absolutely convinced that also your helicopters can fly well and it should be possible to find an issue that is responsible for this.

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Spirit System developer

I set the cyclic ring for roughly 10 / 10.5 degrees on my 380-420 size helis. Most of the times I`m just over 10* which should be fine for helis this size and my flying style. Collective pitch is set at 12.5 / -12.5

Then how can I switch FBL system brands on the helis and the issue goes away using almost stock settings? Just make the normal changes to adapt system to the heli.
I install the Spirit back and the small issue is back.
I`m just trying to figure out the issue. It is the only problem I have with the Spirit. Other than this small issue I like the performance of the Spirit. I`m not trying to say the Spirit is bad. I`m just trying to see if you would be making changes to the software / setup that may help solve the issue in the future.
I have setup many different FBL systems and this is the only FBL system I see the issue with.

What is the normal stick dead band setting on the Spirit? What is the most used setting here. 10 as the default or higher or lower?

Well, you can try my advice(s) and see if it will help. First we have to find why the problem is happening for you while not for anyone else.
I know you are experienced, but what I have found is that actually people that are very experienced are doing things in the way that worked for them all the time. Then when they encounter some different product, model, receiver, gyro, etc that is different they are doing it again in the same way they know. But they will not realize that the same procedure is wrong in that case. For example VBar require to set 8° and people are configuring this also for Spirit for example as Geometry 6°. Or configuring 10° cyclic range just because they are configuring it for other units, even that it is not according the manual.

Regarding PID we will very likely not change anything in the following 10 years, our aim is the contrary. To simplify the settings as much as possible while obtaining the best possible performance. But for sure there will be many, many changes in all areas.

Fortunately I can just tell you that your models can fly without such issue with current software and firmware. We just have to find what is wrong. There is always something that can be improved, but wouldn't 3d masters pilots recognize such issue too?

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Spirit System developer