Simple example.
You are using VBar + REX receiver + external governor. Everything is working perfectly.
You are switching to Spirit + REX receiver + external governor. Governor is not usable.
So normally, pilot will think - Spirit governor is very bad.

But this thinking is wrong (and in any field).
Because you will not realize, that you are not using REX receiver with the same protocol anymore (VBar does not support EXBus of course).
And unfortunately in any field, one think can influance completely different think that you think, can't affect.
And as I have said, REX receiver with an older firmware can interfere with sensor readings so much that it can make useable governor unusable and vice versa.
But with same protocol (e.g. UDI) you have used previously it might work just fine with both helicopters. But usually customer is selling the product, because he is pretty convinced what is wrong.

We are working with customers for very long time, so we have earned some experiences and unfortunately even that one is verifying something 3 times, it can still be wrong, yet he is telling it is perfect. And again, it does not mean something is not wrong in the unit - I am not saying everything is perfect and definitively we want to improve all the areas.
But we can't do it immediately and just because something is not working, we can't change everything, especially when we don't know what is root of the problem.

We have to make sure that the solution will work better for thousands of our customers, not to improve one case but to make worse all other cases when it worked well previously.

Yes, we will get the products that are not working. But we can't do it immediately and start to make changes as I have said previously. We have work for many months so we must finish things that are more important.

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Spirit System developer

Unfortunately for me I can't wait months for an working governor. I will bother you no more with it.

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[b]-TT E700 V2-Spirit Pro-mks950-980-Kontronik Kosmik 160 HV -Pyro 700 rewound by PD / Voodoo 600 -PD-MX700-470kv--BLS255hv-VBAR 5.3+- Gaui X3+ Spirit Pro

I am still convinced it can work with any setup and with current firmware if it worked previously (with a different unit).

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Spirit System developer

Noise is noise.... I'm doing EMC stuff as a PCB HW designer. So there is somewhere a source causing noise and somewhere a receiver getting the noise under some way of coupling.

I did my leanings with different ESC and FBL as well as Servos. If you monitor with an Oscilloscope what a Servos is doing to your System Power your going crazy. Peaks of 2-4Vpp over a target 6V and they also introduce high frequency noise into your system. I do allays plug an Capacitor over Power parallel to all Servos into a free Port in FBL. Just 1000uF/16V will help a lot, have you done such?

Noise can have different sources, could be your not having really noise but unstable ground caused by loops. From as system point of view, noise is a unwanted difference between ground and signal. Think of the following, if your Servos are drawing like 10A Peak over a 100mOhm Power Cable, this gives a 1V Shift on your Power System pending on the point, where you look at the system.

So one critical thing is to have a Common ground, no loop's. Perfect would be a star configuration, with FBL in the Center, if FBL gets down, all gets down, there is no point to have power on RX if FBL has no power. From FBL, one Cable to the RX part, one or two parallel Cables from FBL to ESC/BEC, if two use them, but they must be parallel on same side of the bird. RPM Signal separated in different wire harness.

Looking at Hobbywing, one Cable is rpm with Power, on is Throttle with Power, I personally would separate the orange rpm completely from red/black, if there is noise from ESC/BEC on System Power, noise will be coupled to orange rpm Signal as well, so separate them.
If you got Capacitor on FBL, Ground loops and coupling eliminated, think of filtering, use ferrite but use them for rpm Signal close to FBL as you want to filter them in front of FBL. If you do it close to ESC, there is still cable left to FBL to catch noise.

Let me know if it helps, Adrian

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Oxy4max SpiritPro + HW // SOXOS 550, SpiritPro, HW120A V4, 920KV // SOXOS 600, SpiritPro, HW160A, Pyro650 // SOXOS Strike7, SpiritPro, HW160A, Pyro750 // Skywing Spirit Aero // FrSky Horus X10S + Taranis X7 /

Hi,

Thank you for your help. No ground loops, just single power to the Spirit.

I rather use the seperate hw sensor in that case, less work, no bulky ferrite rings.

But for now I will try to use the build in governor. I tested the gov with yge on my x3, sometimes rpm does weird things, like not recovering from freewheeling (overspeeding). With yge I used the external hw sensor and there where no noise errors.

Same on my raptor with mezon. Sorry but getting 1650 rpm in normal mode, than switching to idle 1 and back and getting 1740rpm every time is not normal. Also after overspeeding (very little, im not Talking mcdoodles here, im against those) its 1740rpm. I can replicate this on the bench without load and spirit shows requested 1650 and actual 1740rpm. Since the Spirit is the only thing controlling throttle im sure its fault lays there.

I have read more examples of this rpm problem with freewheeling+spirit gov. For now ill leave it like it is. Maybe if there are changes made to the governor later ill give it a try, but then bailout have to be safe also. For me its unacceptable that I can have a instant spoolup from zero. Its another discussion but ill keep mentioning it till it's made safe for electro.

Thanks again for your explanation.

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[b]-TT E700 V2-Spirit Pro-mks950-980-Kontronik Kosmik 160 HV -Pyro 700 rewound by PD / Voodoo 600 -PD-MX700-470kv--BLS255hv-VBAR 5.3+- Gaui X3+ Spirit Pro

Hi Velocity and Tomas, let me sum up from my perspective.

1) In my case, with Castle Edge and build in rpm Sensor, Gov works as expected.
2) If I run it on the bench with no load, it's also not governing correct, under load it's doing fine.
With no load, rpm will be much to high for N (1650) I have to toggle F-Mode to 1 (1900) and back to N (1650) to get 1650.
I think its a problem as rpm ramp up to quick with no load. (need to investigate more, like whats requested rpm and current rpm like....)
3) About free wheeling, It depends what you mean with it... active freewheeling is something ESC is doing to stay cool on low load by shorting clamp diode for inducted current to keep induced Voltage and in motor and heat not in ESC, which would cause heat in ESC, nothing to do with FBL, but if you talk about free wheeling of head (like overspeed stuff) I guess it's the same issue as with no load, if no load issue is fixed, free wheeling should be fixed as well.
4) AR-Bailout works great for me, but I do leave spoolup to ESC. Issue is known, if FBL sees THSignal somewhere below 49%, ramp-up does start from this idle point. Software Mean Filter could help there.
5) ESC prerequisite: Unfortunately not every ESC is made for external Gov, as it's not acting fast enough like Velocity said in case of Mezon 250ms delay, which is a clear no go to have such an external delay in a PID regulation path which should be very fast reacting. Still if it works for any external Gov FBL, it should also work for Spirit.
6) There is a issue with noise on rpm Signal, how can this be addressed in a general way (source, issue, solution)

Tomas, is there a plan to fix these known issues, how can we (the users) support you the best in a constrictive way by doing specific tests?
regards, Adrian

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Oxy4max SpiritPro + HW // SOXOS 550, SpiritPro, HW120A V4, 920KV // SOXOS 600, SpiritPro, HW160A, Pyro650 // SOXOS Strike7, SpiritPro, HW160A, Pyro750 // Skywing Spirit Aero // FrSky Horus X10S + Taranis X7 /

I think something has to be done about the sensitivety? We as endusers can't do very much about the rpm signal. As for the bailout, mine sure gives instant spoolup at 50 procent! Happened yesterday and desided to at least not try it until that's sorted.

With freewheeling offcourse I mean freewheeling of the head.

Fly hard backwards, pull the heli tail down with zero pitch, the Spirit gov will not recover to requested rpm.

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[b]-TT E700 V2-Spirit Pro-mks950-980-Kontronik Kosmik 160 HV -Pyro 700 rewound by PD / Voodoo 600 -PD-MX700-470kv--BLS255hv-VBAR 5.3+- Gaui X3+ Spirit Pro

Hi,

thank you Adrian for your support.

If you are starting governor with collective pitch in a higher than non-hovering position, then the RPM will be not accurate, because collective add is adding RPM depending on the settings. This might be reason, why headspeed is not settled precisely.

We are trying to do improvements in the governor during these days, but it requires a lot of testing with many helicopters. For example we are trying to minimize overspeeding in any configuration now.
For testing the best are problematic helicopters where something is not working. So we are trying to get these components and to make it work with all.
Right now we are building Gaui NX4 so we can check how to set it.

velocity90: This behavior is of course not correct and of course it is not a normal operation. We are testing governor in hard 3D so something like this is unacceptable.
We have tried to minimize noise effects as much as possible, there are 2 filters, one HW one SW. More filtering = slower response = bad performance. We prefer correct HW operation over SW hacks. So now it is configured in a compromise.

For example if pilots are needing a special configuration where values are e.g. maxed or very high (very different than everybody else need for correct operation) this is immediately evoking feeling, that something must be wrong there.
From the testing I can say, that too high values could make it much worse and can induce more problems.
So the best is to start with the lowest values and increase just one.

E.g. Holding performance at 1, Governor Response from 4 and then start with increase to 5.

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Spirit System developer

I suggest not to test with hard 3d,use normal rpms, only then will these problems be visible.

Also its normal practise to start a heli with - 1 to -3 degrees of pitch. Zero pitch isn't an option.

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[b]-TT E700 V2-Spirit Pro-mks950-980-Kontronik Kosmik 160 HV -Pyro 700 rewound by PD / Voodoo 600 -PD-MX700-470kv--BLS255hv-VBAR 5.3+- Gaui X3+ Spirit Pro

Not sure why you are seeing rpm fluctuation during spool up- possibly the noisy sensor is causing this? On both my helis the RPM stabilise while on the ground with a few degrees negative pitch as you can see in the graph below. I'm running 2350 or so RPM on the globlin which is defiantly not maxing out its capability I'm using a HW 100a ESC and also a HW 50a ESC on my trex. No noise flags anywhere in the logs but running Spektrum sats and spektrum receivers on mine.

You can see I've got very little fluctuation in RPM mostly because of the telemetry I'm using (spektrum). Also when doing some flips(can see the voltage dip) the rpm fluctuate very little (under 100 rpm) even though my collective skills are rubbish. You can also see towards the end of the flight I switched to a lower headspeed for landing and the governor responded immediately (about 100rpm lower)

There is definitely something going on with your particular case as it can work very well. Probably a combination of factors
- noisy signal
- maybe the ESC has some bugs still in it?
- maybe it's the RX connection as Tomas suggested?
- maybe ground loops or something else electrical? Ive got a capacitor installed on my Goblin as it has higher current draw servos compared to the Trex 450L.
- maybe something with the radio setup as well or just the combination of receiver, connection protocol and the radio?
- a bug somewhere on the spirit FW?